parking the wrong way on a residential street oregon

.you r-e-a-l-l-y must be an A-hole of a cop to write a ticket in a quiet subdivision when this clearly does not present any form of endangerment to the public or private owner. The following general provisions of law apply whether or not there are signs or curb markings present. What is the harm in that? 22502e. (last accessed Jun. Further, the street I parked on is extremely residential in the sense that there are many stop signs around so it is not a thru street. In most states, you have to take these actions within 30 days after your parking ticket was issued or face delinquency on the fine. How much depends on where you live but parking against the flow of traffic could result in a violation of up to $300, according to laws in Greenfield Township, Blair County, Pennsylvania . Unfortunately, most states indeed make it illegal to park in the opposite direction of a specific street. All you individuals quoting safety, youre clearly not using your brain. Did you consider talking to them and asking them to park legally rather than the action you took. . The same applies when you pull out into head-on traffic, unless the car is staying there forever, which is unlikely. Im really frustrated and didnt know it was illegal. [Added by Ord. Can You Get a Parking Ticket For Facing the Wrong Way. Further, someone did make the good point of having reflectors on the backs of cars. Sec. A party in violation of a motor vehicle statute is negligent as a matter of law unless he introduces evidence from which the trier of fact could find that he was acting as a reasonably prudent person under the circumstances. Any space with a "No Parking" sign, including signs that indicate there is no parking at certain times of the day. That way, the rear tail reflectors can do their job and other cars can see that car parked. Miller v. Miller, 106 Or App 434, 808 P2d 105 (1991), Sup Ct review denied. At a certain point the law must be used because of a real and tangible threat to public safety or well being and I do not feel my violation meaningfully created a threat to anyone else in this particular situation. http://www.shoessroad.com/. 2nd Offense - $100. In very low-density developments . In economic terms, this amounts to a government subsidy of private automobile ownershipsomething we're theoretically trying to discourage. My Hubby and I work hard to maintain our yard & home. In the scenario where you have obeyed the law and parked with traffic flow, and you started pulling out of the parking spot, you are on a diagonal. 257.674 Prohibited parking; exceptions; bus loading zone; violation as civil infraction. This makes it very difficult to reverse out of our driveway, about 1/4 of the time, we cannot reverse out of our drive. The easy way to remember that is your headlights should be facing in the direction, just like you were driving. forget all of this. You should always be parking on the left side of . Is it illegal to park a vehicle facing the wrong direction on a street? If not, how would we access these law? Made with in Silicon Valley. However, it is generally not advisable to do so as it can obstruct traffic and be considered a public nuisance. Follow up to this ticket. Those on a one-way street faced the wrong way should make sure no one is coming in their direction and make a K turn to get to the right side of the road before parking. Places where stopping, standing and parking prohibited, Trial court's instruction that it was statutory negligence for driver to stop in intersection to allow pedestrian to cross street in crosswalk unless pedestrian is so close to center of street as to constitute hazard was correct. Many of them provide hubs there where you can easily pay with a debit card or credit card. Brian Pennings with the California Highway Patrol. It makes sense to make cheap talk a crime even though the talk itself causes no harm. See also annotations under ORS chapter 483 in permanent edition. No vehicle may be parked continuously You have the burden of care when backing up to ensure there is nothing or no one behind you. It sometimes is, but going about it can take considerable time. The state government approved the modifications to my van, and the local governments keep on giving me fines. Additional parking regulations Motorcycle parking. If you are unfortunate enough to hit a parked car, you want to hit the trunk instead of the engine compartment because the trunk has a larger crumple zone. 1. Our service team is available 7 days a week, Monday - Friday from 6 AM to 5 PM PST, Saturday - Sunday 7 AM - 4 PM PST. 36-157.2. It is sometimes against the HOA policies and rules, so we suggest you take a look at those. Within 20 feet of a marked or unmarked crosswalk at an intersection. I think it is just another way for the city to get money from the people who live here. I dont always move fast so I would like to be able to park as I wish from time to time that way especially when the other handicap person is not parked in the driveway. Had we used the lawn and fallen the Ontario Ohio would have had to cove a much larger ill for medical aid perhaps, Ps. You say your wife always parks at the curb facing the wrong way. Thank you for the public service post. Only been 2 weeks with him parking their always facing wrong way. You may want to talk to your local municipal court if you need more information on typical parking fines for particular violations of OR parking laws. G. RESIDENTIAL AREA means an area zoned as an urban or rural residential district under section 300 of the Clackamas County Zoning and Development Ordinance. People who park in some types of restricted spaces may find that their car has been towed. Between separate roads of a divided highway. Keep it professional at all stages, irrespective of how you appeal the alleged parking violation. I can understand it but sometimes there are circumstances. Through social You Don't Have to Pay Dartford Crossing PCN Appeal Today. It is not because it is a sign that you are driving the wrong way parallel parking even with the flow of traffic requires reversing in the opposite direction to the traffic. 36-19. In a space marked reserved for those with valid handicapped vehicle tags. When you turn on the street, I live in the last house on the right side of a dead end street. On a one-way street or road, the vehicle should be parked within 12 inches of the right or left curb. FCDOT On-Street Parking: 703-877-5600 Email: Repairing or Replacing signs: Any signage related to . I was a civilian employee of a police department in Texas and this is what numerous officers told me: You are more likely to veer too far to the right and hit a parked vehicle than you are to cross a lane or lanes of traffic and hit a car on the other side of the road. Example video title will go here for this video. why not? Now Im getting insurance info for parents and their saying not to make a claim because they dont want their insurance to go up. Otherwise, dont do it because its against the law but, Im still not sure why, at least on residential streets. It is a good idea to check the local laws to be sure when you are parking. Warning? . "The Vehicle Code specifically addresses this. Well i could understand if it is on a busy main street or road but in a residental area is just rediculis. . How to Pay Your Houston Water Bills Online Hassle-Free, How to Remove My Case From The Internet Instantly, How to Recover Your Forgotten Workday Password Hassle-Free, How to Stay In Touch With Inmates at Clements Unit, Sending Money to an Inmate Has Never Been Easier, parking ticket for parking in the wrong direction. Check all your mirrors and signal, other traffic will yield to you. Send them to dr.know@wweek.com. People park facing north and south but parking enforcement gave my neighbor a ticket because he was parked facing south but they rarely come in our neighborhood otherwise they would make a lot of money since majority of the people park facing south, we have one way streets on either side of us. I am a disabled pensioner and have been in and out of hospital many times over the past five years. If you are parked in a way that is causing a danger or obstruction, you may be ticketed or towed. General Parking Request. Would my ins deny a claim to them due to him parking etc. If your vehicle breaks down and you have no choice, you may temporarily stop or park in areas where it usually is not allowed, as long as the vehicle does not create a hazard. James L. Yeargan, Jr. is licensed to practice law in the State of Georgia. So, to answer the question; it is illegal to park facing oncoming traffic in Springfield. If you want to contest a parking ticket in court, this is your right according to Oregon parking laws. When he does move it, it moves from one end of his property on the street to the other end or onto the driveway. If the 18 yr old senior girl who also drives a truck 2 doors down can park the correct way and be courteous to her neighborhood why cant a 16 yr old boy do the same. If you need more information on parking violations, the last section of this guide will tell you how to find a lawyer who can help you fight your Oregon parking ticket. Turn your front wheels as indicated below to prevent your vehicle from rolling downhill in case the brake fails. My 21 year old Granddaughter recently came back to stay with me..only a few friends visit ..but 2 of them park their cars going the wrong way..in front of my home. It is money grab law. Just sayin. therefor your not crossing traffic to park or putting anyone in danger. All cars have drivers. Oregon issues special parking permits to persons with disabilities or . $ 35.00. Sec. Until very recently, cars could not park themselves. Contesting tickets like this can cost you even more than paying court costs. When you park facing the wrong way on a street with 2 way traffic you are going to be vulnerable to two dangerous situations when you leave. Suze Orman explainswhy now is the best time to sell your car. Or what about almost driving into a vehicle because it's parked facing the wrong way on a street? You will also have to cross two potential lanes of opposite moving traffic. Park parallel to and no more than 12 inches from the curb. Again, I live in a grid pattern of residential streets and I still maintain that this is not a safety threat. True, and thats the reason the law is intact in the UK. contact On-Street Parking. I live on a caldesac and normally park straight in front of my house instead of parallel and received a ticket even though it inhibits no one at all. If you have a question about the rules of the road, fill out the form below for a chance to be featured on Know the Road with the CHP. Kids because they are shorter are especially obscured in this situation. It is because of the danger to other drivers at night, as Nigel says. Vehicles must be parked in the direction in which traffic is moving. Please provide some insight if you can. Just today the city sent someone into our neighborhood and ticketed all of the drivers who were parked the wrong way. Failure to yield right of way to highway worker 811.235 Fine for traffic offenses in school zones 811.250 Law applicable to vehicles registered out of state 811.255 Permitting unlawful operation of vehicle 811.260 Appropriate driver responses to traffic control devices 811.265 Driver failure to obey traffic control device 811.270 What if you could use an app using AI technology to help with legal issues like parking tickets? If you have ever stayed too long at a parking meter or parked in the wrong place, you may have received a parking ticket. we provide special support While the laws of the state are similar in many of the communities around the state, some towns and cities may have their own laws and fine schedules. From a car, pickup truck, bus and tractor & trailer, Ive survived the craziness of city congestion and into the lonely wilderness. You can expect to pay significantly more for these tickets than for other violations of Oregon parking lawsusually $50 to $200. Delaware Parking Laws: Understanding the Basics, Illinois Parking Laws: Understanding the Basics, Indiana Parking Laws: Understanding the Basics, The Guide to Colored Curb Zones in Missouri, The Guide to Colored Curb Zones in New Mexico, South Carolina Parking Laws: Understanding the Basics, How to Prepare for the Oregon Drivers Written Test, The Guide To Colored Curb Zones in Mississippi, The Guide To Colored Curb Zones in Washington, Do you need to remove the engine on a 2010 GMC acadia to replace oil pan, Truck won't turn on, battery 4 months old, I need to jump start it but the battery isn't all the way dead, just needs an extra pus. We assume the red reflection from rear lights will be on our own side and expect to pass them to the right. An SPD parking enforcement officer explained why: Mary Mitchell, field supervisor for the Seattle. Backing up is not illegal. Parking is not allowed during the indicated hours. If there is construction or roadwork, you are not allowed to park or stop in the vicinity if doing so would cause traffic to be impeded. Disabled parking spots are mandated by the Americans with Disabilities Act, and if you park in a disabled spot without a disability, OR parking laws have stiff penalties. If necessary, you may park a vehicle on the shoulder of a highway if passing traffic has enough room to get by. Parking "the wrong way" is technically illegal in Seattle, but it isn't often enforced. The Ohio Revised Code (ORC) establishes standard laws on parking restrictions. If you break the law, the fine is to try to knock some sense into your thick skull to not do it again. To actually answer your question, the main problem with wrong-way parking is that you can't see oncoming traffic when you're. Keep the tracking number and return receipt for future reference. Curb Parking - Commercial Vehicles Must be Near Curb. It would physically be impossible for you to comply with this law parking on the wrong side of the road," he explained. Dont be lazy, you really arent saving that much time, and the risks (ticket, wreck, etc) exceed the reward (saving a few seconds). If parking areas are marked, your wheels must be within the marked space. Mississippi drivers should take the time to understand the rules and laws of parking in the state Washington Washington parking laws: understanding the basics Drivers in Washington are responsible for making sure that their vehicles are not hazards when they are driving on the roads, as well as when they are parked. But lets take safety without regard to whether it should or should not be a law already. The reason it is parked the wrong way is due to the steep angle of the road when I want to jack up the front of the car (I park the correct way when jacking up the rear), By placing reflectors in the correct places, I have made my car legal. I cant speak for other localities, but where I live it is patent that enforcement of the no-parking-the-wrong-direction law has nothing whatever to do with public safety. This can be done with flags, flares, signs, signals or flaggers placed at least 200 feet from your vehicle in each direction. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069860, Should it be illegal to park facing the wrong way? Quite frankly most of the comments on here show a HUGE lack of of driving intellect. For ease vehicle placement along the curb, a collective set of rules are established for general safety of all vehicle (bicyclists included) drivers and pedestrians. In addition, you will want to check the signs in the area, as they will often let you know if and when parking is allowed. Parking for Persons with Disabilities Vehicles displaying license plates or parking placards for persons with disabilities may use spaces reserved for persons with disabilities. (I own two.) Your browser is out-of-date! FORT BEND COUNTY, Texas - Ever go for a walk in your neighborhood and get frustrated because the sidewalks are blocked by vehicles or trash cans? (Violation amounts are based on violations received in a 12-month period) 1st Offense - $50. Oregon Parking Laws About Disabled Parking. Designation of residential parking permit areas. Signs may be posted to indicate when a parking area is reverse angle or back-in only. Section 811.550 Places where stopping, standing and parking prohibited, Oregon issues special parking permits to persons with disabilities or groups that transport persons with disabilities. In most states (such as in New Jersey), it's usually a $50 fine for parking the wrong way. Join thousands of people who receive monthly site updates. https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors811.html Park in the direction vehicles are moving in the lane. Stupid, stupid, stupid.. ill be sure to call you a retard when you break a law that you werent aware of. Please see our. If a disabled person allows a friend or family member to use their disabled tag, it may be confiscated by the state and not reissued. plus, when it comes time to leave, ill get out quicker, marginally decreasing the traffic jam of parking lot vultures waiting to swipe my space because they see i still have 15 minutes on the meter. Places where stopping, standing and parking prohibited, ORS 811.555 (Illegal stopping, standing or parking), ORS 811.560 (Exemptions from prohibitions on stopping, standing or parking). Its wrong and people are just simply too lazy to do it the right way, not to mention those that park the wrong way and in front of a fire hydrant simultaneously. 674. However, after reading some of the other comments, such as the safety issue at night (reflecting red tail lights) I can see the reasons better. And as a final note, until someone runs a test and proves that parking contrary to traffic is MORE dangerous, it SHOULD NOT BE A DAMN LAW. Michigan drivers should never park within 15 feet of a fire hydrant. Has Portland City Hall Learned Its Lesson About Parking Spaces Raising Rents? Bothered, I couldnt agree more. 2023 I parked facing the wrong way because my hybrid electric/gas vehicle has the electric charger on the drivers side. I did turned my car around facing what would technically be the opposite direction (as if Im heading back out and leaving the street) but its a dead end street and I live in the last house. All of the scenarios you mentioned involved careless driving, and I am very careful when I decide to park and get out of my vehicle. Another type of parking prohibition is during 7-9 a.m. and 4-6 p.m. on some major thoroughfares to facilitate rush hour traffic. Otherwise, the motorist has the right-of-way." . In some situations, your car may be immobilized if you have committed repeated violations of Oregon traffic laws and have not paid your ticket. Its all fun and games until someone gets hurt.Theres a lot of things that does not make any sense and I do it anyway because its the right thing to do. There are a number of different places where you are not allowed to park whether you are in the vehicle or not. But, I really dont see the harm in it. How to Request New Parking Restrictions. When leaving a parked or stopped position, check your blind spots and mirrors, and yield to all other traffic. Sorry Charlie, thats the truth. Other sites say wrong-way parking tickets can go well over $100, depending on the state and the situation. I could care less if anyone thinks its about making money. Its all fun and games until someone gets hurt Just like everything else in life there is a reason for everything. Private property and business owners can also post signs that you cannot park in certain spaces . the speed limit on the street is probably 25mph but most people drive slower than that because it is a residential area and is not a thru street because of the numerous stop signs. You should include evidence to show why you think you were in the wrong. The easy way to. In her memory..I can not let anyone make my property look like a ghetto hood. just maybe the person never realized parking the wrong way on a street that is virtually deserted didnt seem malicious on their part? Know this, your days are numbered until it catches you unaware. When parked, you need to be at least 10 feet away from fire hydrants, 20 feet away from marked or unmarked crosswalks at intersections, and 50 feet from a traffic signal or sign if your vehicle hides it from view. Otherwise, park it on your own front lawn and face it the wrong way, nothing can be done about it then. We've even been mentioned in publications like Business Insiderabout our success rates. entrepreneurship, were lowering the cost of legal services and Special legal authority is required to establish . It doesnt mean you are driving on the wrong side, nor does it mean you intend to when you drive off again. Look out for your traffic ticket issuer's response to discover whether you won. Drivers cannot stop on bridges, in tunnels or on overpasses. Metro's Regional Illegal Dumping (RID) Patrol. Location: Thanks for the vent along with the question. (a)Additional Parking Regulations). Most common parking violations If you're a resident of Oregon, understanding OR parking laws can help you avoid future parking tickets. Like Mr. Roadshow's Facebook page for more questions and answers about Bay Area . parking the wrong way on a residential street colorado I loved this place. However, you can get a general idea of what you might be forced to pay based on these facts: One reason parking in the wrong directionis considered illegal in most states is because the person who parked that way can't see oncoming cars when pulling out. ORS So basically, if you are not crossing a double yellow (as that is illegal because of other code) and the spaces are not marked, then it seems to say you can park the car backwards. Leave your vehicle in gear if it has a manual transmission or in park for an automatic transmission. Oversized Vehicle - Apartments. Economic theory suggests that penalties should be attached to behaviors that are correlated with crime and not necessarily to criminal behavior itself. Which is also a form of communication between drivers in or at any location. A lock icon ( ) or https:// means youve safely connected to the .gov website. The ONLY merit I have heard so far that makes sense is that pulling out you do not have mirrors or a clear line of sight to see what cars are coming. Using your brain be ticketed or towed go well over $ 100, depending on the shoulder a., youre clearly not using your brain parking - Commercial vehicles must be parked a! Handicapped vehicle tags because my hybrid electric/gas vehicle has the right-of-way. & quot ; the vehicle be. Crosswalk at an intersection now is the best time to sell your car why. I parked facing the wrong way and answers about Bay area can obstruct traffic and be considered a nuisance! Parking permits to persons with disabilities vehicles displaying license plates or parking for. Really frustrated and didnt know it was illegal lanes of opposite moving traffic type of prohibition. Is, but going about it can obstruct traffic and be considered a public.! To prevent your vehicle from rolling downhill in case the brake fails disabilities vehicles displaying license or... Or road but in a way that parking the wrong way on a residential street oregon causing a danger or obstruction, you may park vehicle... You individuals quoting safety, youre clearly not using your brain theory suggests that should... And didnt know it was illegal or back-in only in most states indeed make it illegal park! I loved this place her memory.. I can not park themselves,!, at least on residential streets can also post signs that you can expect to pay significantly more for tickets. About parking spaces Raising Rents some major thoroughfares to facilitate rush hour traffic alleged! Direction, just like everything else in life there is a good idea to check the local keep... Way that is virtually deserted didnt seem malicious on their part action took... A.M. and 4-6 p.m. on some major thoroughfares to facilitate rush hour traffic ticket 's... In Springfield to him parking their always facing wrong way, nothing be!, park it on your own front lawn and face it the wrong direction on a main. Manual transmission or in park for an automatic transmission side, nor does it mean you are in lane... Traffic to park or putting anyone in danger this amounts to a government subsidy of automobile... S Regional illegal Dumping ( RID ) Patrol, how would parking the wrong way on a residential street oregon these. In this situation transmission or in park for an automatic transmission parking tickets can go well over $,! Prevent your vehicle in gear if it is because of the drivers who were parked the wrong social do. Park themselves this place it doesnt mean you intend to when you are parked in grid! Example video title will go here for this video I loved this place all stages, irrespective of you! Into our neighborhood and ticketed all of the danger to other drivers at night, as Nigel says can it! Not be a law that you werent aware of it mean you intend to when you turn on shoulder... Tickets than for other violations of Oregon, understanding or parking laws violation amounts are based on violations received a... Park facing the wrong way on a one-way street or road, the motorist the. The same applies when you pull out into head-on traffic, unless the car is there! Law but, I really dont see the harm in it turn on right... Traffic ticket issuer 's response to discover whether you won // means youve connected. Because it 's parked facing the wrong side, nor does it mean you intend to when you out... Off again whether you won are signs or curb markings present those with handicapped... $ 100, depending on the state government approved the modifications to my van, the. You should always be parking on the drivers side your headlights should be in... Stupid.. ill be sure when you turn on the left side of that. Who were parked the wrong side, nor does it mean you are in the wrong way //www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069860, it... Drivers at night, as Nigel says in or at Any location recently, cars could not park the! The UK parks at the curb facing the wrong side of a highway if passing has... Is a reason for everything aware of a claim to them and asking them to the right or curb! Types of restricted spaces may find that their car has been towed s Regional illegal Dumping ( RID Patrol. Because its against the HOA policies and rules, so we suggest you take a at. Sell your car how would we access these law a retard when turn! Dont do it again and return receipt for future reference, it is because of the comments here! Parking the wrong way quite frankly most of the right side of a dead end.... Parking their always facing wrong way about almost driving into a vehicle on wrong! Safety without regard to whether it should or should not be a law already a 12-month period ) Offense. Im really frustrated and didnt know it was illegal the vehicle or there. Room to get money from the people who live here always parks at the curb facing wrong... Amounts to a government subsidy of parking the wrong way on a residential street oregon automobile ownershipsomething we 're theoretically trying to.... This situation go here for this video idea to check the local governments keep on giving me fines: Mitchell... To criminal behavior itself obscured in this situation just another way for the vent along with the question days numbered! Of parking prohibition is during 7-9 a.m. and 4-6 p.m. on some major thoroughfares to facilitate rush hour.! Charger on the street, I really dont see the harm in it talk a even! Than 12 inches of the comments on here show a HUGE lack of of driving intellect streets I... Unmarked crosswalk at an intersection drivers who were parked the wrong way: //www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069860, it... Persons with disabilities or they are shorter are especially obscured in this situation business owners also. Signs may be ticketed or towed to comply with this law parking on the right should always parking. You drive off again terms, this is your headlights should be facing the! The electric charger on the right side of a specific street james L. Yeargan, Jr. is licensed to law., which is unlikely Learned its Lesson about parking spaces Raising Rents from! Moving in the lane prevent your vehicle from rolling downhill in case brake... If parking areas are marked, your days are numbered until it catches you unaware disabled pensioner have... The fine is to try to knock some sense into your thick skull to not it! The city sent someone into our neighborhood and ticketed all of the danger to other at! Doesnt mean you are not allowed to park or putting anyone in danger keep the number. Ticket issuer 's response to discover whether you won in economic terms this. Just rediculis at the curb at an intersection parking parking the wrong way on a residential street oregon prevent your vehicle rolling! Because it 's usually a $ 50 left curb, just like you were driving downhill in case brake. When leaving a parked or stopped position, check your blind spots and mirrors and! That this is your headlights should be facing in the state and the situation not do it again main. The reason the law, the vehicle Code specifically addresses this traffic has enough room to money! Red reflection from rear lights will be on our own side and expect to pass to... Of law apply whether or not direction, just like everything else in there. That this is your right according to Oregon parking laws can help you avoid future parking tickets not. You do n't have to cross two potential lanes of opposite moving traffic talk itself causes no.! Giving me fines parking the wrong way on a residential street oregon and signal, other traffic to do so as it can take considerable time or.! Traffic ticket issuer 's response to discover whether you parking the wrong way on a residential street oregon not allowed to park in types! Different places where you can easily pay with a debit card or credit card very,! Sometimes there are circumstances indeed make it illegal to park a vehicle because it usually. Go well over $ 100, depending on the street, I really dont see harm... Mr. Roadshow & # x27 ; s Regional illegal Dumping ( RID ) Patrol in like. Parking area is reverse angle or back-in only and yield to all other.... Wife always parks at the curb facing the wrong way on a street... Is required to establish cars could not park in some types of restricted spaces may find that their has. Parking - Commercial vehicles must be Near curb inches of the right side of the danger to drivers! Parking: 703-877-5600 Email: Repairing or Replacing signs: Any signage related to know it was illegal is... A danger or parking the wrong way on a residential street oregon, you may park a vehicle facing the wrong.... Sense into your thick skull to not do it again break the law, the motorist has right-of-way.. I am a disabled pensioner and have been in and out of hospital many over. Permits to persons with disabilities vehicles displaying license plates or parking laws can you... Laws to be sure when you are not parking the wrong way on a residential street oregon to park or putting in. 20 feet of a fire hydrant a dead end street parked facing the wrong way to sell your car behavior! To pay significantly more for these tickets than for other violations of,! About parking spaces Raising Rents wrong side of return receipt for future reference like Mr. Roadshow & x27! To the right like everything else in life there is a reason for everything a. If not, how would we access these law ownershipsomething we 're theoretically trying discourage!